Curse

payne · Apr 14, 2008, 05:26 PM // 17:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by It's A Me

Lol, im up for it. Ill go through cantha with that again, would be awsome to see how frustrating it would be

it actually looks quite fun, search the idiots who think there "leet" from those with actual skill - stops mission runners as well:P no two monks bye bye runners - *waves at smokey* cant run wars (I believe) :P

English Warrior · Apr 14, 2008, 05:33 PM // 17:33

/notsigned sorry shan but i would kill myself if that happened the developers introduced them skills for a reason all it is the metagame we go through this all the time we all want easier builds than the builds we used b4 ursan now we get them its too good we cant have it both ways if you dont like consums and pve skills fine dont use them but why change the game when its a 50/50 here.
The last builds we used with obby tank etc was 3-4 professions with ursan there is a variety any profession can run ursan with the right build and equipment infact i found ursan made the game better by giving all professions the same chance with their own unique advantages with there primary profession and can all farm the same thing.

the_jos · Apr 14, 2008, 05:43 PM // 17:43

Quote:

this is one of the worst "ideas" I've ever heard of in here. It's just a whine thread about Ursan and PvE skills...

I don't agree with you.
Shan has a good point, one that also concerns me.
PvE skills and to a lesser degree consumables do take away knowledge about team builds and professions.

Even I can see how skills like SY/TnTF/CoP or SoL give enormous power to the experienced player. It's not only about UB, however, UB is the skill that the player in an unorganized team would use. Or the experienced player would abuse to get things done fast.
The thing I don't agree on is his solution.

This is what I wrote on our guild website not so long ago in our guild rules:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hades Illusion

As far as I'm concerned, there should be no discrimination in what I consider regular Hard Mode.
That's vanquishing, Hard Mode missions and dungeons except Slaver's on Normal Mode.
You need a balanced team and someone might not fit into a 7/8 team.
However, I don't want to see any Rx+ Ursan only teams.

The elite areas are somewhat of a different kind of story.
It's almost impossible to team up in DoA without Ursan Blessing.
Other elite areas might have similar 'problems'.
People have always requested certain team builds when playing with PUG.
However, you are not PUG. If you have a decent team already you might swap that ursan with a normal player.
Be creative and see if you can fit in a certain class.

You may or may not agree on it, it's my opinion and something I will enforce in my guild if needed.

I see the PvE skills including UB as a tool to get things done faster and will (ab)use them when they help. Same with consumables, though I never felt the need to use them except in Ursan groups or when doing things as fast as possible, like the UW event we had last weekend.
But using a sledgehammer as a tool to solve all problems is not the way to play. There are other ways that might be more efficient but people don't use them anymore because they know the sledgehammer works.

Shanaeri Rynale · Apr 14, 2008, 05:43 PM // 17:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_jos

Shanaeri,

Sorry but I really don't fully agree on your OP.

[super snip]

If we are looking for overall improvement we should be looking for ways that would benefit teaming up with different builds.

No need to apologise. My point is, is that teams did all the elite areas without PvE skills and cons(well maybe not Mallyx but we all agree DoA was Anet’s PvE waterloo). There are and will always be optimal builds for certain areas, always professions that are not as favored. It’s just part of gaming. Those who want to rise to the challenge of playing non favored professions or sub optimal builds can do so, but they need one heck of a good bunch of friends/guilds along to help them. Even GW2 won’t fix that.

I don’t doubt grouping was harder pre Gwen, but if the cost is an even worse discrimination is that a cost worth paying?

This isn’t a thread about the merits of pve skills vs not. More about a suggestion on how we reconcile the clear schism there is in the game for those who enjoy zap and whoosh and those don’t. Because for the average player, there is no other choice for high end PvE, buy gwen, farm norn and pay2-8k per run. This just *has* to be wrong.

Contrary to what many think or see, I love puging, esp in Fow and UW. Since I wont run Ursan(personal choice not a judgement) the number of teams I can help in has dropped drastically. If I did'nt have Gwen, high norn rank etc how would I get in? Does'nt matter what prof I am, so long as I'm r10 Norn and have enough cash for consumables?

I’m not possessive about ideas, but it’s clear at some point Anet will do something about it. I would just like it to be something more subtle than nerfing skills to oblivion or allowing the PvE game to turn into who can farm the most norn and pay the most for consumbales. To have it end up like that would be, in my view a great shame.

Horseman Of War · Apr 14, 2008, 05:50 PM // 17:50

started off nice but then i read you opinions on the pve skills and laugh

./nosign for u

TheRaven · Apr 14, 2008, 06:18 PM // 18:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shanaeri Rynale

No need to apologise. My point is, is that teams did all the elite areas without PvE skills and cons(well maybe not Mallyx but we all agree DoA was Anet’s PvE waterloo). There are and will always be optimal builds for certain areas, always professions that are not as favored. It’s just part of gaming. Those who want to rise to the challenge of playing non favored professions or sub optimal builds can do so, but they need one heck of a good bunch of friends/guilds along to help them. Even GW2 won’t fix that.

I don’t doubt grouping was harder pre Gwen, but if the cost is an even worse discrimination is that a cost worth paying?

This isn’t a thread about the merits of pve skills vs not. More about a suggestion on how we reconcile the clear schism there is in the game for those who enjoy zap and whoosh and those don’t. Because for the average player, there is no other choice for high end PvE, buy gwen, farm norn and pay2-8k per run. This just *has* to be wrong.

Contrary to what many think or see, I love puging, esp in Fow and UW. Since I wont run Ursan(personal choice not a judgement) the number of teams I can help in has dropped drastically. If I did'nt have Gwen, high norn rank etc how would I get in? Does'nt matter what prof I am, so long as I'm r10 Norn and have enough cash for consumables?

I’m not possessive about ideas, but it’s clear at some point Anet will do something about it. I would just like it to be something more subtle than nerfing skills to oblivion or allowing the PvE game to turn into who can farm the most norn and pay the most for consumbales. To have it end up like that would be, in my view a great shame.

Good post and I think I see the ideal solution. What we really need to do is form a list of friends that we know are capable of finishing these areas and prefer not to run Ursan and cons. I'll sign up.

The difficulty is really finding folks that can join during your prefered playing time and finding folks that are at the same skill level as you. Sure there are players that don't want to run Ursan that will jump at this but they could also be that ranger that is shunned from all groups because he owns prophecies only and runs all necro mm skills on his bar.

I signed up for "The Deep" pugging thread and unfortunately each time the organizer has pm'd me asking me to join a team, it has been at times when I was busy with other events.

I wouldn't mind the Ursan/cons teams so much if I knew I had a choice. I'd love to find a core group of players that are interested in elite areas or vanquishing and wouldn't require Ursan or cons. Granted these areas would take longer to finish without them, but you get more satisfaction in the end.

mHtt · Apr 14, 2008, 06:29 PM // 18:29

I have located the hole in the anti ursan argument, here it is folks!

Shanaeri Rynale wrote:

Quote:

Read the many millions of (anti ursan) threads on it in the riverside forum.

then:
bhavv wrote:

Quote:

However, I cant actually play FoW or UW anymore because I cant ever find a non ursan group. This is how it affects me negatively.

The problem is this, the ursan bashers hate them selves. They can't even organize themselves enough to go to toa, add like minded people to friends list and party with normal skills.

In stead they blame the OTHER players, who CAN organize a group of like minded people for a fun and effective time.

If everyone REALLY hates ursan there should be a flood of people in ToA, who are willing to go with a normal bar. Hell I'm sure you could even find some people who would go with no armor LOL...

The anti Ursan argument is weak, at it's best, and I declare it defeated.

I also find it funny, that "bhavv" who is an Elementalist, blames the ursan b/c he cant find a group for uw/fow. Have u ever heard of terra tanking solo UW? U can do all of chaos planes, bone pits, and solo frozen king, while rest of team does slayer, vale, escort, unwanted queen etc etc...

I have a feeling that 90% of anti-ursan argument are from people who I think are too lazy themselves to actually explore what the game REALLY has to offer/rank up in norn, and need an easy target for why they're still poor!

Ps. I DID just read the above post.

MUCH REPSECT, I respect you not attemping to enforce your will on the community. And hey maybe ill join some time... (minus my armor of course!)

payne · Apr 14, 2008, 06:33 PM // 18:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by mHtt

If everyone REALLY hates ursan there should be a flood of people in ToA, who are willing to go with a normal bar. Hell I'm sure you could even find some people who would go with no armor LOL...
The anti Ursan argument is weak, at it's best, and I declare it defeated.

because as stated people are lazy as hell and want what they want when they want it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Proff · Apr 14, 2008, 06:37 PM // 18:37

I don't use ursan for anything other than elite area runs and those I do rarely. I've gotten Legendary Guardian and I'm well on my way to LEgendary Vanquisher without ever using Ursan for an area.

My point is this, when someone makes a "Need help with X in HM!" they almost always add "but I've tried ursan and still can't beat it

". This is what you want to prevent, not that your armours or weapons are losing value but that 90% of players have no idea on how to, well, play :/

Angelina Collins · Apr 14, 2008, 06:51 PM // 18:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shanaeri Rynale

Unless you've been living in a cave these last few months, the use of PvE skills and consumables has been a hot topic. This thread is'nt to go into the pros and cons of these but to suggest a way to change their effects such as to continue to make them fun to use, but also encourage more versitile skill usage and play styles.

Now,what i'm suggesting is that we leave pve skills and consumables exactly as they are. Many people enhoy them and for loads of people they are a great fun way just to mess about in game. However it is clear that their use has affected high end PvE in a negative way in terms of player skill, builds and profession usage. So how to balance it up.

In many video games(esp consoles) cheats are provided by the developers, but progress is often hindered or the same games are marked with CHEAT etc.

My suggestion is that if a player uses A PvE skill. or a party wide consumable then that player forfiets the ability to place the statue in the HoM and recieves reduced drops from the end reward chest. Ofc the rest of the team wont be affected to stop griefing.

Therefore people can ursan away to their hearts content kill everything, still farm the areas, but to earn the acheivement or maximise drops they need to run a non pve/cons build. Like hardmode rewards people for upping the difficulty, this would do the same.

It's people like you who are the first to use hacks to gain an advantage, then once you are umber powerful, frown on all those after you who do the same as you.

Your idea is the worst idea I have ever heard to date. Balance is what destroyed GW in the first place. Greed is the second thing that has destroyed GW. For once I would like to hear an idea that benifits the game for all, and not just the eleteist, greedy, ignorant players.

TheRaven · Apr 14, 2008, 06:58 PM // 18:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Proff

I don't use ursan for anything other than elite area runs and those I do rarely. I've gotten Legendary Guardian and I'm well on my way to LEgendary Vanquisher without ever using Ursan for an area.

My point is this, when someone makes a "Need help with X in HM!" they almost always add "but I've tried ursan and still can't beat it

". This is what you want to prevent, not that your armours or weapons are losing value but that 90% of players have no idea on how to, well, play :/

Unfortunately those players will always be here. Most are little kids with no desire to learn how to play. Others just will be lazy. I know this kid that recently beat Prophecies. He was bragging that he was now an "elite" player and always begs to join us for HM stuff. Unfortunately, I've seen a lot of his bars and he is far from "leet". He considers himself a great player because he's beaten a campaign.

This same kid skipped the jungle because he heard a run to Sanctum Cay only cost him 1k.

He bought a full desert run for 2k because it sounded like a cool thing to do.

He paid for a run thru Elona Reach because that mission is "just sooooo super hard!!"

He begged a guildie to finish THK for him.

Also begged for help with Ring of Fire.

Yet he's leet because he finished Prophecies!!!!

Not!

Shanaeri Rynale · Apr 14, 2008, 07:02 PM // 19:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angelina Collins

It's people like you who are the first to use hacks to gain an advantage, then once you are umber powerful, frown on all those after you who do the same as you.

Your idea is the worst idea I have ever heard to date. Balance is what destroyed GW in the first place. Greed is the second thing that has destroyed GW. For once I would like to hear an idea that benifits the game for all, and not just the eleteist, greedy, ignorant players.

I don't mind so much my ideas being called bad, I've had some really bad ones in my time. but I'm sorry Huh?

1. You accuse me of using hacks - I was one of the first people to report a number of exploits, including the Mallyx exploit. Never EVER used one. I kick people from my guild who do, if I went ahead and used them not only would I be an exploiter but a shameless hypocrite.
2. Show me one post I have ever made that frowned upon someone of 'lesser ability'
3. Show me once slice of evidence I have been greedy, quite the opposite in fact. Let me give you some examples

Feb 2007. My idea to collect ingredients for canthan new yet to help people get pigs for free, without needing to pay or do anything. We helped over 3000 people get these pigs
May 2007 My guilds second birthday - we gave away near 2m in gold's worth of items - My idea, I organised it
Aug 2007 - My Alliance sold lock picks at cost price saving people a total of 1.4m in gold
December 2007 - Guild and alliance help an unnanounced giveaway in LA, kamadan and KC for 6 hours. Total value of items given away was in excess of 2m
Feb 2008 - Canthan New Year. We supplied ingredients for 79 districts over a 24 hour period and helped over 15,000 people get the firework crates.
Apr 2008 - Guild and alliance held an UW contest with over 1.6m gold in total prizes.

Let me see if everyone sold their pig for the average price of 15k, the Feb 2007 event would have made the community 45m in gold
add on the giveaways and you get a total of 52m. Add in the fireworks 5 cratesX15,000X200 each and you get a total of 67 million that we have generated and given away for the GW community

Is this the actions of a greedy, selfish person?

Since 2005 I have been running teams with non holy trinity professions to prove to people you dont need a monk, ele or warrior to suceed. The teams we ran cleared UW,FoW, The Deep and Urgoz. Helped many many hundreds of people for FoW Armor runs, for free on my own time. Is this elitist?

As for ignorant, I respectfully suggest to do some research before you throw accusations around.

Sorry, everyone else. Normal service will now be resumed.

My idea may not be the best(some may say understatement of the year =p ) but if not this, then what?

pfaile · Apr 14, 2008, 07:05 PM // 19:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angelina Collins

It's people like you who are the first to use hacks to gain an advantage, then once you are umber powerful, frown on all those after you who do the same as you.

Your idea is the worst idea I have ever heard to date. Balance is what destroyed GW in the first place. Greed is the second thing that has destroyed GW. For once I would like to hear an idea that benifits the game for all, and not just the eleteist, greedy, ignorant players.

There was no need for this, please keep it kind. It does'nt matter if you disagree or agree, just be civil to each other.

Konig Des Todes · Apr 14, 2008, 07:06 PM // 19:06

I must say I cannot agree with this at all. I play a sin, and as such, I cannot find non-ursan groups for any elite areas, because those that don't run ursan are "balanced" groups, which use a set team of professions, and I can never get into one. So, because of my profession choice, I must lost all of my end-chest drops? I must be hurt because I am forced by others to use Ursan and cons? No, simply, no. This idea lacks the thought of those who don't want to use the overpowering PvE skills.

I do use Critical Agility, but that is not overpowering, the only skills that are, as I saw mentioned a few times, are "Save Yourselves!" Pain Inverter, and the 3 Blessing skills, especially Ursan. If any PvE skills get nerfed like this, it should be those three only, but as also mentioned in past post(s), "Save Yourselves!" requires high grinding to make it really good, that or fast adrenaline gaining. And as for Pain Inverter, that is most effective against high damage dealers, so in many areas, it is not a big issue. Ursan, with a good monk(s), could clear the entire game without breaking a sweat, especially with cons.

I suggest no change at all because, although changes are favored by the "elitists," and no changes are favored by the "noobs-gone-elitists," any changes would create even more QQ'ing then there is now, and will also create bragging, or should I say, bring back bragging. The only reason why there is constant complaining is because such skills are overpowered. Personally, if I designed the PvE skills, I would never have included the three Blessings as skills able to be gained outside of their respective missions. But just because they are doesn't mean that they should be slaughtered by nerfs, just leave it alone.

I have no complaints about Ursan, even though I dislike using it, and many times I must use it in order to get into a group. But I disapprove of all change suggestions I have seen, and probably will ever see, because they just bring back the old "elitists" to be the only ones who can do Hard Mode and the Elite Areas.

In short, your idea, I disapprove of. Ursan, Raven, and Volfen Blessings, I disapprove of. Other PvE skills, I see no problem with. Changes for any of the PvE skills, I disapprove of.

Edit: just want to be clear, that I mean not to hurt anyone's feelings or sound like a jerk, but this idea just hit my last button regarding ursan, no need to harm all PvE skills, especially treat them like cheats when they are not cheats, they are simply skills that were tested to see the separation between PvP and PvE. At least according to my memory of an article I read. I understand the want to change Ursan, and cons do make things easier, but they were meant to. If ANet meant for them to be "Cheats" then I think they would have put in a code for them, in other words, they would be free*regarding cons* I cannot think of a single game where you pay for cheats.

Lastly, if any of this was already mentioned, sorry, didn't feel like reading all the pages.

TheRaven · Apr 14, 2008, 07:18 PM // 19:18

Azazel, it's refreshing to see someone who can respectfully disagree with an idea and intelligently state why without resorting to the typical "OMG ur an idiot moron!!!!" flame posts.

Here's my position in a nutshell:

I think Ursan and Pain Inverter are overpowered skills. However I use them when needed to fit into pugs. If I'm given a choice I'll generally use a different elite than Ursan. I have no problems with using Ursan. I also will have no problems if Anet decides to nerf Ursan.

Cons on the other hand are a different story. I love powerstones and use them when needed while vanquishing or in dungeons. (I typically use one in the harder HM dungeons for my heroes. I rarely use while vanquishing and don't need them for nm dungeons or for all human teams). The other consumables I detest and I hate being required to use them in areas that I used to be able to finish without them.

DivineEnvoy · Apr 14, 2008, 08:03 PM // 20:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shanaeri Rynale

My idea may not be the best(some may say understatement of the year =p ) but if not this, then what?

We don't need to make any changes.

Fear Me! · Apr 14, 2008, 08:10 PM // 20:10

/notsigned. I've read through all the posts, good ones all of them except the ones that throw accusations of course. I understand the OP's idea, and the antagonists to that idea. The problem with gw pve was addressed a long time ago by Ensign, who posted that elite pve areas in gw only stressed a return to the core team build of tank, nuker, and healer. This post of his was a while back, and even then elite pve was not fixed. In order to fix that brokenness of elite pve where the majority of players not tanks, nukers, or healers were denied entry into a party was to provide them a means to enjoy that area of the game, hence ursan. Anet is clearly keen on letting players enjoy the game fully, rather than allow a separation to exist between the leet players and the ones that aren't. This was evident when they silently nerfed the Thunderhead Keep mission when GuildWars and Prophecies were one and the same. They did not do this to spite the supposedly leet teams who were able to beat it, but rather to allow the larger playerbase to enjoy the game, rather than struggle with one area in order to advance. I remember there were people stuck there for weeks of everyday playing. Shynaeri [DVDF], I know how you must feel, its exactly how I felt when they nerfed THK, until I came to realize I was then suffering from what I recently came to learn as e-peen, and to simply let others have fun and enjoy the game whichever way they can. And no, I don't think anet will ever make an area solely for leet players, this much is clearly obvious at this point. What I do miss, and what I'm sure most of the OP's protagonists miss, is that willingness to work together which has all but disappeared from most pugs, and the sense of a team accomplishment you got from working together. Also, Shynaeri, thanks again for the DVDF sponsored events at Shing Jea; you guys set a good community example.

bhavv · Apr 14, 2008, 08:12 PM // 20:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by mHtt

In stead they blame the OTHER players, who CAN organize a group of like minded people for a fun and effective time.

An Ursan group is not organised. It takes no organisation other then buying con sets, having 5-6 ursans, and 2-3 HB monks. also, it can hardly be classed as fun. It is literally just a method to get the area done as fast as possible, and the people playing Ursan are only using it for this reason - It is fast, and it gets them their rewards quicker. This does not make it fun.

I dont actually pug, I have played in 2 HM alliances (including the_jos's guild), yet every group created for FoW and UW in these alliances is full ursan and HB monks. They have no place for my elementalist from the start so I just use my monk. Before ursan I would always play fow nuker, but it is now impossible to do that because the people that I play with ONLY choose to use full Ursan groups.

This isnt only a problem with FoW and UW. In my last alliance, everytime a group for a vanquish, mission, or dungeon was being formed, it was ALWAYS an Ursan group. All that was required was 5-6 Ursans and 2-3 monks, for just about everything in the game.

Tell me, what is the point for me, a person who enjoys the build creativity and vast options that GW allows to be stuck playing in an ursan group after ursan group after ursan group for everything in this game? It is tedious, it is repetitive, and it is annoying. Having said that, I rarely ever play the same thing in GW continuously. I probably only do FoW and UW a few times a month, and dungeons another few times with the occasional vanquish in between. However it strikes me as extremely boring if I had to use Ursan EVERY SINGLE time I wanted to play an elite area of the game or on HM with other people.

I can just be glad I have my H/H for everything other then elite areas in GW. Ursan has ruined PVE in this game, but I dont find it surprising that a newbie Ascalonian Squire cant see or understand any of the reasons why. It has removed the need for any other skill or build in the game in elite areas. Everything can now be done with this one 'God mode' skill, and I find it highly ammusing that people run around using Ursan everywhere and think at the same time that they have any skill left in GW.

GW was meant to be Skill > Time. Ursan is Time > Skill. GG to Anet for totally destroying what you originally intended to create in this game. I have no respect at all for such a lousy game development team.

Racthoh · Apr 14, 2008, 08:22 PM // 20:22

As much as I agree I would also want an overhaul of hard mode itself. It's not like it isn't doable without PvE skills and consumables (since players did have their HM titles done before the introduction) but there isn't a lot of fun to hard mode. It's a poor design, like DoA. Ramping up the numbers doesn't make for an enjoyable challenge, nor does the addition of environmental effects that limits the professions a player should use.

PvE skills and consumables are a bandaid on the larger overall problem with the methods put forward to introduce challenge. When you use both you realize that neither mode is really all that different. You become compensated for that difference in numbers, so when players say that PvE skills and consumables make hard mode normal mode well they're entirely correct. The differences in AI are not even noticeable because they are very minor between the modes.

Basically if you want to remove PvE skills and consumables you need to make PvE possible to the majority without tankandnuke tactics. Level difference damage and critical hits, 20 specced attributes, everything. Is there a reason why an elementalist boss can wipe half a party with one spell? Is that challenging, or even fun? At the same time if I daze that boss any threat it posed is now gone. Such basic tactics can be used to eliminate all of the challenge in this game. Create balanced mobs with better AI so that things like PvE skills and consumables no longer make up for the obvious lack of player skill.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mHtt

The problem is this, the ursan bashers hate them selves. They can't even organize themselves enough to go to toa, add like minded people to friends list and party with normal skills.

In stead they blame the OTHER players, who CAN organize a group of like minded people for a fun and effective time.

Ursan greatly compensates player skill, grabbing 7 random people doesn't work for a non-Ursan group. If a balanced group has bad players who don't know how to make a good skillbar then the group is going to suffer. Pick-ups are still as terrible as they were when I didn't have an active guild of people to grab.

Quote:

I have a feeling that 90% of anti-ursan argument are from people who I think are too lazy themselves to actually explore what the game REALLY has to offer/rank up in norn, and need an easy target for why they're still poor!

Right, I only play the game to dress up my barbies AKA pve toons. Ursan Blessing is basically communism. Everyone being an equal, sounds like a great concept right?

JASON626 · Apr 14, 2008, 08:23 PM // 20:23

Anet add an update to hard mode: No elite skills allowed gogo :P